Just Say "Stop!"
Nancy told me about her very scary and bizarre experience walking the dogs tonight. It happened when she was walking Milo and Petey around the block in Chicago just before she came to a corner. At that moment a guy walking his Wheaton Terrier came around the corner. So she led Petey and Milo off the sidewalk and over to the curb. Most of the time in the city if you move your dogs off the sidewalk you expect the other dog walker to keep an eye on their dogs and just go past. The really smart people, or those with reactive dogs, will proactively cross to the other side of the street when they see other dogs coming toward them.
Every now and then Milo can get kind of weird when approached by a dog while he is on leash. He'll hit the end of the leash and bark at the dog. We think he does it because he figures a good offense is the best defense. It is pretty rare, say one in a hundred dogs, so we usually drop his leash so he knows he can get away and then he is always fine. If he is concerned he'll move away until he is comfortable and stay out of range of the other dog. If there is anything that is constant about Milo; he's never looking for trouble. So Nancy dropped Milo's leash and he just sat there next to her.
The guy with the Wheaton asks: "Are your dogs friendly?". Nancy replied: "He's leash aggressive". Then the unimaginable happened. The guy reaches down and unclips his dog's leash...!!! Nancy said she was flabbergasted. What in the world was this guy thinking? So his dog, who is pretty friendly looking, races up to Petey and Petey, being the overgrown puppy that he is, thinks "Wow Let's Play!" and hits the end of the leash and tears it out of Nancy's hand. He is one strong little guy. OK this is looking bad.
Of course Nancy was standing by the curb to get out of the guy's way. To make matters worse, Petey and the Wheaton tear off across the street! Fortunately, fortunately, fortunately there was no traffic. Nancy immediately tells Milo to stay and takes off across the street (she said she didn't look either...). She is calling Petey to come but he and the Wheaton are having a good time and the Wheaton keeps positioning himself between Petey and her. Which just incites Petey to play more. The Wheaton's owner is futilely calling his dog, who ignores him. Nancy finally gets Petey's attention and he comes to her. He gets a big hug and a huge jackpot of salmon treats.
Meanwhile, Milo, remember Milo? (sorry a little Alice's Restaurant moment there). Well Milo was just being Milo. He was just noodling around sniffing the grass on his side of the street. Nancy said a lady jogger had stopped and was calling him to her. He was completely unconcerned by the heart stopping, adrenaline rush producing, blind panic, terrifying event that his Mother had just been through. Nancy hustled Milo and Petey off and came back home.
So I might have some of this a little wrong, because I got it over the phone, but I think the essence of the story is correct. As we discussed it we came to the conclusion that when the guy heard "He is leash aggressive" he could only have thought... "Oh I should take my dog's leash off so that dog doesn't attack when he sees the leash"... I still can't believe it, but it is the only explanation.
Now we mostly hang out with other Dog People or at least people who humor Dog People. So had we heard someone say their dog was leash aggressive in a similar situation we would have given them a wide berth and kept a close eye on our dogs, gotten them to focus on us, and moved quickly out of there. Now apparently, saying that isn't a clear enough signal to your average person.
Which reminds me of another incident, many years ago, when I was walking Mr. Peabody and Milo. A lady is pushing her small daughter in a stroller and I see them as we come out of the alley. She asks if they are friendly and I say "Mr. Peabody doesn't like children". So what does she do? She starts coming directly toward us leading with her child in the stroller. I pulled in their leashes and she keeps coming. Finally Mr. P let out a couple big dog barks and she stopped.
As she was telling me this story, Nancy, being the articulate and intelligent one, was trying to come up with reasonable things to tell people in situations like this and I just didn't like any of them. Especially since people don't seem to register what you are saying if they have a plan of action already formulated.
So I think the best solution, other than walking your dogs where you won't run into people with their dogs (which is getting increasingly difficult in the city), is being almost rudely direct. If asked "Is your dog friendly?" my plan is to always reply in an unequivocal manner with "No". If they insist on coming toward us (assuming I can't retreat) I will say "Stop!" and keep repeating "Stop!" and/or "Go away!" with increasing emphasis. Yep it might brand me as the weird or rude guy with the Border Collies, but it might be the only thing that protects us from cluelessness.
Now that won't protect me from the knuckle heads who insist on walking their dogs off leash in the city (they usually have dogs that don't listen to them and have no recall at all) but that is a whole different rant...
Do you have any better ideas for stopping or redirecting the clueless?
Comments
you know i've been in this situation with sandy many times. i've had people let their dogs run at us have a field away yelling "he's friendly!" as i franticly yell back "she's not!" and pick her up - yes all 70lbs of her. (she's pinned a few dogs in her day)
i have found the best way is a good "no" and a clear body block. turning your back to block the other dog seems to be pretty clear. though cru has shown that a snarl and a few barks works too. i have switched the side that to dog has walked on as the other dog approaches - most half brained people get that.
trust me, i'm the wack job that has the aggressive LAB! try explaining that one!
I use "He thinks people are CREEPY." Surprisingly, most of times it works. With dogs I typically go with the above posters' response. Cluelessness runs rampant!
I'll never forget what my first dog trainer told me in my puppy kindergarten class: "If you don't want another dog and owner approaching you, just yell 'He's contagious!' and you'll be amazed at how quickly they move away."
I tend to try and not make eye contact with most dog people while walking, keep Bernie at my side and go briskly past. What is funny is if I have the Gentle Leader on her most people automatically stay away thinking it is a muzzle.
I'm amazed someone would just let their dog off leash near traffic and think it is a good idea - just to say "hi".
that's whi I just say "NO" when someone asks if my dogs are frendly. it's easier and more understandable to people than "Well, the speckled one can be pretty grouchy with other dogs, especially when she's on the leash and meets bigger dogs who are overly friendly, and i can't predict how she will react to your dog." I don't trust other people enough to think they will get the message. Coincidentall, I was just about to blog about a similar experience of my own ...
My favorite answer is "He has mange," or "He's contagious." No one thinks they can fix that by changing how they approach. Everyone understands that sick is sick, and they don't want their dog (or their kids, or themselves) near a sick dog. It's a very good way to get people to avoid you.
Elayne
Rather than go into a long rant here I have a whole post here: http://daysofspeed.blogspot.com/2008/05/is-there-something-in-air-today.html
complete with my suggestions.
"NO, she is NOT friendly" -- even though she is a big lovebug springer spaniel and would love to get a bum scratch from you, if you weren't accompanied by a big out of control dog.
With my puppy -- no one would ever believe a puppy isn't friendly, especially mine who is going into full-body wriggling to say hi -- usually "do NOT interrupt us, we are training", accompanied by a glare, is sufficient. (It's usually true!)
Of course, I only use these when I see absolutely clueless dog owners or out of control children approaching. Anybody else is more than welcome to come say hi. :)
I used to have an aggressive Standard Poodle, and worked very hard with him. Training him was way easier than training the ignorant public, especially since he looked so friendly. When people would ask to pet him, I would usually give a sunny smile, say, "Not today, sorry..." and breeze past them. Holding my hand up in the universal stop sign pose was very effective with really insistent people. I never liked to really yell at them, since that would set my boy off, too. I sure learned a lot about dog behavior from that boy. Also the yahoo group Agbeh is a wonderful resource. Great tips for aggressive behavior in dogs (and how to handle John Q. Public, too).
JohnQPublic
Your thoughts all make sense.
However here's another.
Usually with unresolved conflicts, it's because there aren't shared goals. You would think people would have a shared goal of avoiding dog fights, or avoiding creating dog behavior problems. But they don't.
So you can't control the other party no matter what you say or do. Since you have your own personal goal, all you can do is act in a way that maximizes your success for that goal.
i.e. you go away. Saying stuff, or trying to control the other party (especially during the stressful situation) is a waste of time.
Dog people are sometimes control freaks. We have to watch ourselves. Control freaks aren't the top of the pyramid in terms of what humans as a group want to aspire to.
So this post is pretty direct too, and probably more than I intended. But you see what I mean...
Now if you have a goal of trying to control the other party for some reason, and you can't..well that's just the human condition. No matter how hard you try, sometimes you can't. Have to learn to live with that. If the other dog attacks you or your dog, you fight back. Your goals don't have to include protecting all dogs in the world
In this day I would never tell someone my dog was aggressive, unfriendly, or anything that can sound that way. With all the laws trying to be passed against "aggressive" dogs I wouldn't take that chance. Unfortunately one person hears your dog is aggressive and the next time there is a dog attack with a dog that even a tiny fraction resembles yours you could have a problem.
Thank you all for your thoughts and suggestions!
Of course we are still looking to avoid confrontation as our first approach.
I've been rethinking the 'No' he's not friendly for the reasons some of you have given. It isn't as bad as saying he is aggressive but I don't want to put the image of a dangerous dog in someone's head should something bad actually happen.
So far I'm liking the "He's contagious" reply the best. I think it would set people back on their heels for a second and sounds like it would have the most impact. The reply for the followup question of "with what?" could be mange or even a made up disease. Heck making up disease names could be fun!
Another suggestion is to not reply and keep going. It can be rude but if it is possible to get out of the situation it might be best. The issue in Chicago proper is you often have so little maneuvering room, sometimes as little as ten feet from a building to the curb, and with traffic in the street you might not have a lot of choices.
Thanks again!
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